Tears for Fears: "The AI ​​is not very different from how we saw the first drum machine"

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Tears for Fears: “The AI ​​is not very different from how we saw the first drum machine”

My meeting in the virtual ether of Zoom with Curt Smith and Roland Orzabal takes place on a placid October afternoon in which they sound fresh, affable, eager to talk and, as almost always, expressing their ideas with precision and detail. His new live album and film (world premiere this Friday, October 24) serve as a starting point, but in our conversation there is time to talk about Artificial Intelligence, his Nueva Olero past, the pending artistic rehabilitation of Phil Collins, and even of his unexpectedly positive outlook on the future of the world.

I wanted to congratulate you on the two new songs I have heard, they are beautiful.

Tears for Fears: Thank you!

As for the concert, it looks great and sounds especially good, I’m looking forward to seeing it on the big screen. The question is why release a live album, the first of your career, right now? Is it just because of the movie or are there more reasons?

Curt: I think it’s mainly because of the movie, it made sense to us after we made it. But there are more reasons behind it: I mean, initially, the movie was a suggestion from our managers because the live show sounded really good, and so did the band. By including material from ‘The Tipping Point’, our live took on a musical breadth that it probably didn’t have before, and for us it was much more refreshing and we enjoyed it more. In addition, we had this visual element that did not exist before and that gave it a unique, visual dimension that was worth capturing. The fact is that once it was done we realized that the live recording sounded really good… to our surprise.
Roland: Yeah, it really sounded good.
Curt: So once we mixed the material live, it made sense to release it on record as well. But we didn’t want to just release a live album and then have to talk about old material in every interview we did. So we decided to start writing new music, which was what the record company wanted anyway. They actually only wanted one or two new songs, but we ended up making four songs, and we liked them so much that we thought they felt more like an EP than just “bonus tracks.” To prevent them from being wasted or reduced to extra tracks, they ended up being the first four songs heard on the album. New material that kind of updates Tears for Fears to where we are now. And then add to that the 18 tracks of live material from our concert.

Roland said in some interviews that you can now do things live with songs that couldn’t be done on a technological level in the ’80s or even 20 years ago. What can be done now that wasn’t possible before?

Roland: Well, practically everything. I mean, I would say that up until the early 2000s, live shows were a little hit and miss. We did great shows, but to be honest, I couldn’t hear Curt. I didn’t hear much else. Nowadays, sometimes we make quite complex harmonies and they are not easy. You have to concentrate a lot on songs like ‘Break the Man’, or ‘Rivers of Mercy’. But since we now play with those wonderful direct-to-ear monitors we can make it sound almost as if we were in a recording studio. So the general notion of what a performance is is not the same as before, with all those monitors on the floor and that kind of thing, where you heard a general atmosphere without great detail, and you heard the audience. Nowadays you can’t hear the audience, but you can hear the other musicians. So, during the preparation for this live show, I went there every night and tried to record an album. So when it came time to record the live concert, it wasn’t that difficult.

I wanted to ask you about the new song ‘The Girl That I Call Home’. At one point in the song there is a drum roll that obviously references the legendary drum roll from Phil Collins’ ‘In the Air Tonight’, sound included. Whose idea was it?

Roland: Well, when we did ‘Woman in Chains’ Phil Collins played on that record, and during the sessions we asked him to play a “Phil Collins-esque” drum roll. And I think he was sick of it, sick of it being some kind of trademark, so he tried to sneak away and not do it. And in the end we had to combine different elements of his tracks, editing them to sound like one of his snare drums. This is getting a little technical!

We love it, don’t stop.

Roland: The fact is that Hugh Padgham, the producer who recorded Phil Collins’ drums, has created a drum preset that can be used digitally and that generates sounds like his drums. So we thought, “great…why not use it?” And it became a kind of joke, but we kept it, a little to see if we would get tired of the joke, which in the end we didn’t, so it stayed.
Curt: We find it funny.

I think it works very well. Do you think maybe it’s time to re-evaluate Phil Collins? It is possibly the last pending reevaluation of all the 80s. What do you think?

Roland: It’s very sad what happened to him. If you read his autobiography, which I highly recommend, you will see that it is a beautiful tribute to Phil Collins. It’s very simple, very, very happy. This guy doesn’t seem to have any problems, and one day he wakes up and is almost paralyzed and has terrible pain in his neck. He undergoes surgery, takes painkillers, becomes addicted to them and becomes an alcoholic… his story is truly terrible. It’s very, very sad. And he did it because of those months and months and months of playing the drums with his neck in a certain position. He played it with his neck in a certain position, singing into a microphone that was higher than his head. And yes, I think there will be, there will be a rehabilitation of his music. I don’t think there’s much left. I hope so.

«The story of Phil Collins is really terrible. “It’s very, very sad.”

The two new preview songs on the album are mainly Roland songs. Is there a Curt song between the other two?

Roland: Well, ‘Say Goodbye To Mom And Dad’ will be the next radio single. Curt sings it, and it sounds like Curt’s song.

I would like to address the issue of the album cover, partially generated by AI, and which caused controversy. Is it okay for you to talk about that?

Roland: Absolutely.

Because I think the statement you published on the matter made your position very clear. But then, if we accept the premise that maybe it’s okay and really interesting for a real artist to use AI as another tool, would you consider doing the same with music?

Curt: Well, to a certain extent, we do. I mean, the artist who made the cover used AI, but he designed it himself. It wasn’t like he logged on and asked “put me an astronaut in a field of sunflowers” ​​and that was it. He had to create it. Using AI, but he had to create it exactly how he wanted. Just as we could ask it to generate a sequence for example in sixteenth notes, with the duration you want, but then it turns out that it is not exactly what you want, because you want it to have a filter, and then I want to change the chords here… and so you go creating, you have to play with it. After all, we use computers in everything we do. And it seems to me that people had the same feeling about synthesizers when they were invented. You know, “why can’t you use a real trumpet player instead of a trumpet sample?” Because the trumpet sample sounds good and maybe I like the sample more than the trumpet player.

So it’s just another medium. Why people are getting nervous now is something I don’t understand, but I think it’s all scare tactics, because people think AI is going to take over the world. And I don’t think that’s true, I think it’s just another tool. We have been progressing gradually over the years, using different tools. I don’t see it any differently than I saw the first drum machine.

Your music is still present in contemporary culture, it is still relevant. It has been interpolated or covered by people like Kanye, Drake, Lorde, The Weeknd… Does that fascination also work in the opposite direction? What new contemporary pop artists are you excited about?

Roland: Well, it depends on what you’re exposed to. For example, thanks to the gym I go to, I’m exposed to the Top 40. So I quickly met Lizzo, Harry Styles… even Ed Sheeran. Or people like Dua Lipa, I like what she did with Elton John. All this music is beautiful and pleasant to listen to. But I’m not so sure that they are proposing something so different or groundbreaking, I think that’s not the case.

What about you, Curt?

Curt: I like more underground stuff, I don’t listen to Top 40 stuff. I loved Phoebe Bridges when she came out, and also a girl called Dora Jar, who I like a lot. And there’s a young American band called Wallows, which I like. From England I wouldn’t say they’re new, but I think Manchester Orchestra’s latest album is fantastic. There are many more, but I would highlight these especially at this time.

Some of your most emblematic songs have been used many times in other cultural artifacts such as films, television series, etc. Which is your favorite? Mine is the beginning of ‘Peter’s Friends’, with ‘Everybody Wants to Rule the World’.

Roland: Well, I guess we should say…
Curt: ‘…Donnie Darko’ (as he says it, Roland interrupts him saying “Despicable Me 4!”
Roland: At the end of the movie we are cartoons.
Curt: Yeah, the ending is absolutely euphoric.
Roland: But… yeah, ‘Donnie Darko’, obviously. ‘Mad World’, but also their use of ‘Head Over Heels’ is absolutely extraordinary.

We currently live in this new digital reality in which videos from decades ago are frequently resurrected. And it’s not just fans of the VHS digital converter, because even TV channels do it. And there is a clip that Spanish Television rescued from the past in which you came out performing as part of your first group, Graduate, making really brilliant power pop and new wave songs… What a feeling it produces not only to hear that music you made but to see your looks then?

Roland: Let’s see, how many 60-year-olds look back and are really amazed at what they looked like when they were 18? Anyway, most people don’t have to endure that torture, and those who do suffer it in private and laugh. To be honest with you, when we left Graduate and became Tears for Fears, I was very aware of that band and really, in many ways, wanted them to be buried. But now I look back and think, “Oh, look at those cheekbones. Wow!” And I also think: “Look at those jerky movements… My God!”
Curt: He’s very jerky, jumping up and down…
Roland: But I think “at least they were moving,” you know? So now I see it as something very fun, and I see myself and I feel good. And honestly, I look at myself, I look at myself and I think: “I am super similar to my children.” It’s ridiculous.
Curt: My kids find it very funny. So the fact that I make my kids happy makes me happy, even though it makes them happy because they can make fun of me. It’s funny.

«The world is more or less the same as always in terms of pessimism and hopelessness, but the way it is told to us has changed»

One last question. I don’t want to end the interview on a low note, but many of your songs have dealt with topics such as destruction and global catastrophe. What do you think of the world right now? Is there room for anything other than pessimism and hopelessness?

Roland: The world is more or less the same as ever in terms of pessimism and hopelessness, but the way it is told to us has changed. Therefore, nowadays, due to social media and certain news channels, news has become divisive. So, whereas before we looked at wars and felt like we were in the middle, today when we see a war, we are on one side or the other. So it’s not that the world is a worse place, I don’t think it is. In fact, there is an interesting argument in the book ‘Notes on a Stressed Planet’ by Matt Haig: according to him things have never been better. And the example he uses is the ability to keep children alive. The mortality rate has improved radically since the 90s. It is a positive thing to consider.

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Simon Müller

Simon Müller is the driving force behind UMusic, embodying a lifelong passion for all things melodious. Born and raised in New York, his love for music took form at an early age and fueled his journey from an avid music enthusiast to the founder of a leading music-centered website. Simon's diverse musical tastes and intrinsic understanding of acoustic elements offer a unique perspective to the UMusic community. Sporting a dedicated commitment to aural enrichment and hearing health, his vision extends beyond just delivering news - he aspires to create a network of informed, appreciative music lovers. Spend a moment in Mueller's company, and you'd find his passion infectious – music isn’t simply his job, it’s his heartbeat.